Merge?

Recent talks with SC about a Merge, have came up with these results:

SC and M4H both disbands. Top 40 of SC and top 40 of M4H will be in one alliance, the rest from both alliances would be made in a "sub" alliance, probably consisting of the same name or close enough name. Leadership in the strong alliance would be Aquinas, but hopefully on equal footing with me so we'd both may be "leaders" in some way. And co-leader would be Anarchy69, and/or silentwolf123 if he gets it in here as well, the co-leaders to carry out something me and Aquinas decision, when we agree on something. 2 heads are better then one, less burden on both . Reason would be, SC are a good few million reputation away from #3 and so is M4H, doing this would make us not only 5 million from #3 alliance in reputation but around a big more gap, and the sub alliance would still consist of the server's strongest, but both of our alliance's weaker. Sub alliance leader would be decided then, whether silentwolf123 makes it up to top 40 or not, he would be/wouldn't be leader there. Or could be decided upon agreement with Anarchy69 and me.

The results of this?: We'll be the strongest alliance around, with a even huger gap, though some of us may have to be in a sub alliance, which is still strong but not so much gap from #3. It would still remain #2 alliance though.

What do you guys think? Yes or no about this.

Well, some people want to remain silent but they told me what they voted. they dont want to be yelled at by fellow members about what they say so i will say what they said for them without giving out names.


6 unnamed people said no.
1 said yes.

I said no to this as well. Been in many merges, They never work out.

yes

Are one of the 6 in the top of M4H?

I am going to add my brain spam in to the debate on this.

I like silent have been thru a number of merges / split in to 2 guilds ect and keep the strongest in one and the rest in another and I know 1 fact...

"Someone is always left behind "

this merge will one destroy the parts market we currently have going in the allaince as well as build rifts in the sub allaince and the more casul members "I for one fill this list as I can only get on now and again set up my citys then log"

the rifts this will cause a eventual breaking up of the sub guild or the actual turning of the guild against the main one people will pick sides leadership will fall apart....

cause and effect can not be stopped sadly

I can understand why your doing this and its a sound idear to make one of the most powerful allances on the server the easy way by takeing the strongest of the 2 and makeing it even stronger. but in the end the rifts this will cause will end up destrying both allainces personal opinion but I have seen this happen from a leadership and just a reg member point of view a number of times.

that is why I say NO to the merger

Personly, It does not matter much to me, Just a Question of were I'm going and personly I don't want to see this forum die (more) lol ^_^ but realy either way is fine with me.

Quote :

this merge will one destroy the parts market we currently have going in the allaince as well as build rifts in the sub allaince and the more casul members "I for one fill this list as I can only get on now and again set up my citys then log"

the rifts this will cause a eventual breaking up of the sub guild or the actual turning of the guild against the main one people will pick sides leadership will fall apart....

I do have to agree with this thought, This is more of a Guild dump that just spliting the Allaince.

Mhmm, and thank you for making it into a poll Tori, though I still can't find the option to even make a poll, just only thread..:/ I don't think I can sticky either...

Voted no. What's the point?

^_^ the poll option will be all the way at the bottom of the first post in a Topic.

Hey M4H, yea this is true Shadow, Aquinas, and I have been talking about a merge of 40 of M4H and 40 of SC to make some grand alliance with a sub clan that is #2 which is the main goal we're looking for.

I've read your main complaint about the merge is a bad idea because merges usually don't work out but that's because they aren't thought out, we've been talking about this for a long time and been trying to get a strong agreement on certain things and that we agree so if we really did join together and have a sub clan we'll all be on the same page and it'll be like we've been together since the start of Elysium.

I've played many games as well and haven't seen many merges go through the way that people think they will be because the members don't mesh well or the leaders disagree on things. But since we got 2 co-leaders and a leader, we're offering 3 co-lead positions which have the exact same power as us and Aquinas cause we work as a team and try staying organized as possible, we don't believe in favoritism so we keep each others powers equal.

Our main issue is that both of us have the same problem and that it is we don't have enough active members. Between the two alliances we have the best players on Elysium military wise and commerce. While Southern Cross has many high rep players some of them have stopped playing and the same goes for M4H. We have looked at our roster list and can actually cut it down to 40 members.. We are sure that if you took a hard look at your member list you could do the same. Yes this means cutting alt accounts and some people who only play occasionally but that's something we sacrifice to have the best alliance in the server the goal is to have one superb alliance not two separate alliances, we have been allies since the beginning and have been close by helping out one another.

Another solution is if we actually merge it's either make a whole new alliance with a new name or join into SC because we currently got a level 8 light miracle which can nearly be upgrade again. But if many people would be willing to move we got a spot in shadow region that can fit about 40-50+ members and we understand not everybody will be moving but if we get enough we could all set up there and build miracles within the center of that area.

We're up for your guys opinions and feed back, we also would like to see if you guys have your own ideas on this so we can work any agreement so we're all on the same page and moving forward.

Also have heard your forum has been losing traffic, our members visit ours very frequently and we could work somethin' out so we can all share one and be active on it.

I am neutral about the merger but do understand the feeling of causing a rift or sub class since teh lower ones will feel like they are being left out and would there be room for movement if ppl dropped to a lower staure

Which is why, i offered to them the idea of sub alliance since i don't want the ones tho join either M4H or SC and aren't included, I like to think in the better of all members, whether they are M4H or SC.
But you are right in that and if we do merge, the idea of sub alliance is the best I can come up with, and even that is a bit grim....

If this does go, The best plan would to be to start afresh, that way EVERYONE starts on even Grounds there is no ill air between the SC memmbers and the new people moving in, also I'd like ot hear from Aquinas as well, I can not truly say that I would welcome a Leadership that does not show himself to the ones he calling for a merge with. Also, there would have to be some way to keep the Sud guild stable (like the stronger giuld supplying RES and such to help keep them afloat), as even if there are many people, Sub's tend to fall apart easly. If you could, please post your Plan in it's entirety.

Hi Aquinas,

Your reasoning seems very well thought-out, and I appreciate your taking the time to post it. Please allow me to share why I voted (and will continue to vote) no. They boil down to three items that, together, make me wonder if a merge is the right thing to do.


3. These things don't tend to work out
I think the point that merges don't tend to go well is a good one. Yes, if things are well-thought out ahead of time, and there's a clearly defined common purpose, and the personalities in the group get along, yes, it can work out and be a wonderful thing. But let's face it -- how often does this happen? Like a marriage, an alliance merge is much easier to talk about beforeahand than it is to execute successfully in the ongoing future. No matter how good the intentions, the chance of failure is high, and so the payoff needs to be worth it. Which brings me to my next point...

2. There's little benefit
What is there for the members and leadership to gain from a merge other than removing the mutual threat of someone nearly the same size looming nearby? Maybe I don't get it -- we're friends already, we share forums, I really don't see what benefit to merging into two would be. It just doesn't seem like there's any gain at the end of the tunnel that makes the risk of the drama-fest that most merges become worth it. Maybe someone can explain this to me...

1. A total power monopoly might be bad for the game
This is what it all boils down to for me. This is a war game, but for the two largest powers to make permanent peace and form into a superpower that nobody can hope to compete with makes the game less interesting for everyone. Oh, sure, it'll be fun picking on anyone and watching them all shake their fists impotently at our godly might for a while, but it's like entering a cheat code, and soon the unequivocal mastery and nobody worthwhile to fight agaiinst will get boring. We won't have any competition, and folks in and out of our alliance will get bored and quit. On the other hand, if there's the threat of war always looming and occasionally flaring up between our two groups, it will keep us all sharper, better defended, less complacent. This is what will make the game more fun for us, and more interesting for all the poor bastards who don't get to join us.

That said, I'm not so against it that I refuse to participate. If the merge happens, I'll support the decision and proudly stand tall in the group I'm invited into. But I think the fundamental question of whether eternal peace is the right way to play a war game needs to be asked, and so I'll ask them.

-Umo (Dk)

The discusstion

[22:44:07] @ silentwolf123 : lets stay the same were we are.

[22:44:12] @ silentwolf123 : we have miracles.

[22:44:18] @ silentwolf123 : by combining we lose them.

[22:44:27] @ silentwolf123 : all that work we did, LOST.

[22:44:28] Aquinas : is it upgrading?.

[22:44:34] Aquinas : not really.

[22:44:39] Anarchy69 : all the work we both did aren't lost at all.

[22:44:54] Anarchy69 : you're looking at all the negatives.

[22:45:11] @ silentwolf123 : no im bring out all the points.

[22:45:22] @ silentwolf123 : everyone else is bring out nothing but positive.

[22:45:38] @ silentwolf123 : im bring out stuff no one is thinking of comeptely.

[22:45:52] Aquinas : because the postives far out way the negatives if they didnt we wouldnt want to do this.

[22:46:05] @ Torigoma : He's got a point, no use in looking at just the good stuff,.

[22:46:06] Anarchy69 : you don't lose everything... acting like you lose every single member and all your rep.

[22:46:30] @ Torigoma : we've got to look at the grim and think of what and who can be fixd.

[22:46:34] Aquinas : well lets talk about the mircales for a second.

[22:46:45] Aquinas : SC has a lvl 8 Light.

[22:46:49] @ Torigoma : Ana, tone it down, what.

[22:46:58] Aquinas : almost ready to go to r9.

[22:47:17] Anarchy69 : he's saying you lose everything you worked toward.

[22:47:19] Anarchy69 : which is untrue.

[22:47:32] Aquinas : M4H has a lvl 4 Shadow right?.

[22:47:44] Aquinas : lvl 5?.

[22:47:52] guod : 5 i think.

[22:47:58] Aquinas : okay.

[22:48:11] Aquinas : and we are talking about haveing 1 major and one minor allaince.

[22:48:15] Aquinas : right?.

[22:48:17] @ Torigoma : Not realy, we WOULD loss alot, on both sides, Both contract wise and REP spent on Mircals.

[22:48:38] @ Torigoma : *RES.

[22:48:39] @ Shadow_Avenger : come to think of it.....

[22:48:48] @ silentwolf123 : yes that what ive been talking about Tori.

[22:49:06] @ Shadow_Avenger : but when you disband alliance, miracles are lost.

[22:49:14] Anarchy69 : both sides would lose some but ultimately we gain more.

[22:49:22] @ silentwolf123 : all the work and resource u spent on them are lost.

[22:49:29] Aquinas : so lets put aside the disbanding plan for a second and work with what we have togeather.

[22:49:37] @ Shadow_Avenger : yea but thing is what's worth it.

[22:50:02] @ Shadow_Avenger : it would only be rewarding if all members, the ones who contributed were sharing in the glorly, those who contirbuted.

[22:50:14] Aquinas : well.

[22:50:19] @ Shadow_Avenger : i've just started calming down and thinking now.

[22:50:25] @ Torigoma : No, I say if we do this, we wipe it all clean, keeping it as would just make it seem like a "Takeover" to those left behind, and just breed resentmnet.

[22:50:46] @ Shadow_Avenger : and ultimately we gain more, but who is "we" when there are defeintly some of us as a whole,being left out while others are being shared in the glorly that all of us deserve.

[22:50:48] @ Shadow_Avenger : all 80 members.

[22:50:53] @ Torigoma : We Disbane Both and make remake them.

[22:50:59] @ Shadow_Avenger : 80 members from each alliance.

[22:51:12] @ Torigoma : thats my say.

[22:51:23] Anarchy69 : you say all your members that are active contribute to your miracle?.

[22:51:41] TheShadowWolf has joined the chat the Mon 22 Jun 2009 - 22:51.

[22:51:43] @ silentwolf123 : alot of us did.

[22:51:49] Anarchy69 : all 80 members?.

[22:51:53] Aquinas : Thats fine.

[22:52:16] @ Torigoma : No, Ana, that would be unrealistc, but a good portion do.

[22:52:35] @ Torigoma : Hey Shadowwolf.

[22:52:50] Aquinas : We Have the ability to make a lvl 5 shadow mircale ASAP.

[22:52:51] @ silentwolf123 : Hey shadowwolf, came to joni the war room? xD.

[22:52:59] Aquinas : if i chose to place it.

[22:53:08] TheShadowWolf : I've been in on and off, lurking heh..

[22:53:13] @ silentwolf123 : yea but that only helps one alliance.

[22:53:24] Aquinas : true.

[22:53:31] @ silentwolf123 : menawhile by putting all the lower members together.

[22:53:32] @ Shadow_Avenger : 80 members from each alliance Anarchy.

[22:53:35] Aquinas : See look at it this way.

[22:53:37] @ silentwolf123 : we wont be helping them.

[22:53:48] @ Shadow_Avenger : i said it right under it.

[22:53:51] @ Shadow_Avenger : I'm distracted a bit.

[22:54:02] Aquinas : Shadow pay attention.

[22:54:10] Aquinas : no distractions.

[22:54:13] @ Shadow_Avenger : -.-.

[22:54:19] @ Torigoma : I say if we do, the Major would have to play role in the minors constuction of Mirical.

[22:54:23] Aquinas : .

[22:54:34] Anarchy69 : i get distracted easy too Shadow don't feel bad .

[22:54:49] @ Torigoma : not just send some stuff here and there ,I mean a big part just as much as there own.

[22:54:54] Aquinas : can you tell me how to do that?.

[22:55:55] @ Torigoma : We could think of somthing, and if all else fails, we could set up trade contracts for it.

[22:55:56] Aquinas : okay let me make a suggestion of a modification of the current plan.

[22:56:23] Drawkcab has been disconnected the Mon 22 Jun 2009 - 22:56 (session timeout).

[22:56:29] Aquinas : pleasedont interupt as i am typing it.

[22:56:31] Aquinas : .

[22:56:35] @ Torigoma : Here is another idea for it, Occupying Alts.

[22:56:51] @ Torigoma : *slow comp.

[22:57:12] Aquinas : thats an idea i havent though of but let me suggest my idea.

[22:57:27] Aquinas : its worth considering.

[22:58:44] Anarchy69 : tell your suggestion Aquinas.

[22:59:02] @ Torigoma : he's typeing.

[22:59:18] Aquinas : SC has a lvl 8 Mircale so I suggest we make it the major alliance. M4H has a lvl 5 Shadow so we make it the minor allaince..

[22:59:32] Aquinas : SC can only recruite from M4H.

[22:59:50] Aquinas : And M4H can recruite whoever it wants.

[23:00:06] @ Shadow_Avenger : I dont get it.

[23:00:14] @ Shadow_Avenger : that was just like the idea that i gave you guys.

[23:00:21] Drawkcab has joined the chat the Mon 22 Jun 2009 - 23:00.

[23:00:22] @ Shadow_Avenger : when Feanor joined us, you said you dislike the idea about.

[23:00:26] @ Shadow_Avenger : members flowing back and forth.

[23:00:33] @ Shadow_Avenger : now, your suggesting it?.

[23:00:36] @ silentwolf123 : i still dislike the idea of seperated people from their friends in a alliance.

[23:00:38] Aquinas : M4Hs new mission would be to recruite new active members and it will have the full support of SC.

[23:00:38] @ Torigoma : that woudl be a Problem with those left behind though, It would turn from a merge to at Takeover/Sweep, and just breed hostilty in the Minor one.

[23:00:49] Aquinas : i said dont inturtupt.

[23:01:05] Drawkcab : Dont interrupt? In chat?.

[23:01:09] Drawkcab : Seriously?.

[23:01:11] Aquinas : yes.

[23:01:25] Aquinas : dont shoot it down until i am done .

[23:01:50] Anarchy69 : just give him a second.

[23:02:18] Aquinas : SC will have all the high rep guys Jay Me, Naheir, but we are willing to give you 40 slots and 3 leadership postions in SC.

[23:02:53] guod has been disconnected the Mon 22 Jun 2009 - 23:02 (session timeout).

[23:02:53] Aquinas : while there will be a leader of M4H he would be subortant to the leadership of SC.

[23:03:20] Aquinas : We use 1 forum to keep everyone togeather.

[23:03:37] guod has joined the chat the Mon 22 Jun 2009 - 23:03.

[23:04:05] @ Torigoma : Done?.

[23:04:12] @ silentwolf123 : some of the low rep people keep the high rep suppied with parts.

[23:04:16] Aquinas : this way we keep both mircales and we circumvent the whol 80player max so we are basically 1 allaince.

[23:04:25] @ silentwolf123 : sorry thought u were done if weren't.

[23:04:32] Aquinas : one at a time.

[23:05:12] Aquinas : that is true silent but what is going to happen real soon is that high rep people will need T3 Parts.

[23:05:29] Aquinas : so they will no longer keep the high rep people in buisness.

[23:05:52] Aquinas : also a high rep specialized commerse player will be able to supply all the parts that a high rep erson really needs.

[23:06:22] Aquinas : by specilized i mean some one who has 10 metal cities and produces metal parts.

[23:06:40] Aquinas : ect for crystal and wood of course.

[23:07:03] Aquinas : it is those players that a high rep mili player is seeking because he wants t3 shios.

[23:07:12] Anarchy69 : i can nearly make t3 wings btw.. tomorrow i can.

[23:07:20] @ Torigoma : so once again, this turns into nothing more that a Takeover/Sweep scenario.

[23:07:26] Aquinas : no.

[23:07:42] Aquinas : its to make one strong allaince.

[23:07:46] @ silentwolf123 : i dont think its gonig to work out still.

[23:07:46] @ Shadow_Avenger : I'd like to say something.

[23:07:53] Aquinas : of 160 people.

[23:08:03] Aquinas : seperated by rep.

[23:08:08] TheShadowWolf has been disconnected the Mon 22 Jun 2009 - 23:08 (session timeout).

[23:08:13] Aquinas : shadow you ahve the floow.

[23:08:16] Aquinas : floor.

[23:08:16] TheShadowWolf has joined the chat the Mon 22 Jun 2009 - 23:08.

[23:08:28] @ Shadow_Avenger : This is what my distraction was about in the begining.

[23:08:37] @ Shadow_Avenger : My girlfriend, told me to consider this.

[23:08:43] @ Shadow_Avenger : 160 people....

[23:09:08] @ Shadow_Avenger : it is to seperate the strongest 80 out of all 160 but when you really consider, how is the line drawn so easily between all 160.

[23:09:27] @ Shadow_Avenger : when you will always have people constanly growing, and hten even the weakest now can overcome eventhe strongest later on.

[23:09:40] Aquinas : right i dont want to have to not include some poeple.

[23:09:43] @ Shadow_Avenger : It has happened, somepoeple get overtaken in rep, some left.

[23:09:53] @ Shadow_Avenger : It looks good on paper.

[23:09:55] @ Torigoma : Besides Military support that in reality is unneeds (as most will be unwilling to attack the #2) the minor would be left in the cooled.

[23:09:57] Aquinas : well.

[23:10:00] @ Shadow_Avenger : but in reality, it's harder to do this, drawing the line.

[23:10:10] @ Torigoma : thats just how I see it.

[23:10:13] @ Shadow_Avenger : when we dont' really have all of the best of the 160 in the server.

[23:10:19] @ Torigoma : True Shadow.

[23:10:25] @ Shadow_Avenger : we just have SOME of the best, and there are always thigns to consier about.

[23:10:27] Aquinas : ill anwser Tor then shadow.

[23:10:33] @ Shadow_Avenger : KoK, GD, Zero, AW.

[23:10:47] Aquinas : hehehe.

[23:10:54] Aquinas : your right Shadow.

[23:11:00] @ Shadow_Avenger : they can always take our guys who grow unsastified, and others are that they have the rest of the other good players, to seperate our guys so would make them.

[23:11:11] @ Shadow_Avenger : feel uncontent, and that would defeintly breed hate.

[23:11:12] Aquinas : there are some strong people not in our 2 allainces.

[23:11:23] @ Shadow_Avenger : and no, it's not shadow, i am mearly writing what my girlfriend's input.

[23:11:56] Aquinas : you bring up alot of points let me try to adress them all if i may.

[23:12:22] @ Shadow_Avenger : Then also, when you say just make SC the stronger and M4H the weaker, i get it for miracle purposes but it's really just undermining the other and boosting the other thus really no good way for one.

[23:12:24] Aquinas : First Tor's.

[23:12:36] @ Shadow_Avenger : Very well, I'll talk to her about something else then.

[23:12:41] Aquinas : gah shadow.

[23:13:00] Anarchy69 : well he did let you talk first .

[23:13:00] Aquinas : let me try to anwser your last poitnb efore you bring up another.

[23:13:20] Aquinas : i know i am trying to address everythign orderly.

[23:13:22] @ silentwolf123 : basicly only look at the info is that u only helping some people.

[23:13:29] @ silentwolf123 : not all.

[23:13:39] Aquinas : we are helping everyone.

[23:12:36] @ Shadow_Avenger : Very well, I'll talk to her about something else then.

[23:12:41] Aquinas : gah shadow.

[23:13:00] Anarchy69 : well he did let you talk first .

[23:13:00] Aquinas : let me try to anwser your last poitnb efore you bring up another.

[23:13:20] Aquinas : i know i am trying to address everythign orderly.

[23:13:22] @ silentwolf123 : basicly only look at the info is that u only helping some people.

[23:13:29] @ silentwolf123 : not all.

[23:13:39] Aquinas : we are helping everyone.

[23:14:05] Aquinas : but the game wont let us have more than 80 people in 1 allaince.

[23:14:21] Aquinas : thats a rule that we are attemping to break.

[23:15:16] @ Shadow_Avenger : no, not everyone mate.

[23:15:18] Aquinas : the minor allaince will have the full protection of the major one... you will be surprised what i can do as a diplomate and that will be compounded when our allaince just seems so imposing.

[23:15:32] @ silentwolf123 : if this happens, i can say im going to be a person hurting from this.

[23:15:46] Aquinas : well.

[23:15:50] Aquinas : silent.

[23:15:58] Aquinas : thats up to shadow really.

[23:16:00] Anarchy69 : you'll be hurting casue you'll be one to be sitting there complaining the entire time.

[23:16:10] Drawkcab has been disconnected the Mon 22 Jun 2009 - 23:16 (session timeout).

[23:16:23] Aquinas : I am not picking the 40 people that you get.

[23:16:38] Aquinas : and if shadow wants you in leadership in SC then you will be in SC.

[23:16:44] @ Torigoma : Anar, second warring, we are here to discuss, no bashing of ANY kind that mean BOTH sides.

[23:17:10] Anarchy69 : not bashing at all he's just being extra negative to everything we say.

[23:17:11] Aquinas : silent is being overly neagtive though Tori.

[23:17:38] Aquinas : i accept disent of course.

[23:17:48] @ silentwolf123 : someone has to think of negitive.

[23:17:58] @ silentwolf123 : you only bring up positives and not thinking of the negitives.

[23:18:01] Aquinas : as i said i accept disent.

[23:18:01] TheShadowWolf : I've already told SA and Silent that I am against the merge. However, if a merge goes through Aquinas' idea would be the best bet for the merge..

[23:18:09] @ Torigoma : Everyside has it's right to deside were they stand, if Silent has conserns, it's his right to state them, even if it is alot.

[23:18:31] @ silentwolf123 : im speaking for more than just myself.

[23:18:38] guod has been disconnected the Mon 22 Jun 2009 - 23:18 (session timeout).

[23:18:46] Anarchy69 : yea it's ok to state them but he's overly negative to everything and i'm just tesponding to it.

[23:18:49] guod has joined the chat the Mon 22 Jun 2009 - 23:18.

[23:18:55] guod : yo jay just got online.

[23:19:04] guod : in game.

[23:19:11] Aquinas : cool bring him in this conserces him too.

[23:19:18] Drawkcab has joined the chat the Mon 22 Jun 2009 - 23:19.

[23:19:24] @ silentwolf123 : Jay is coming.

[23:19:25] @ Shadow_Avenger : ok guys chill it.

[23:19:29] @ Shadow_Avenger : Chill it!.

[23:19:34] Aquinas : I assume he is a coleader here too right?.

[23:19:35] @ Shadow_Avenger : there are no bashing first of all.

[23:19:46] Anarchy69 : i wasn't bashing lol.

[23:19:51] @ Shadow_Avenger : Aquinas, everybody here is a leader or a co leader in here more or less.

[23:19:56] @ Torigoma : that goes your you two as well, if you feel that he's being negitive, then say so just not in a way such as that, I am VERY stric in this since,.

[23:19:58] Aquinas : okay.

[23:19:59] Drawkcab : heh.

[23:20:00] @ Shadow_Avenger : it's a direct democracy.

[23:20:08] @ Shadow_Avenger : second.

[23:20:15] @ silentwolf123 : im the co-leader that is standing up for the lower people.

[23:20:21] @ Shadow_Avenger : second, it doesnt' matter whether it's overly positive or overly negative.

[23:20:25] Aquinas : I stated my view .

[23:20:26] @ silentwolf123 : that feel bad about this.

[23:20:30] @ Shadow_Avenger : as long as it sticks to being your opinion and can contribute.

[23:20:47] @ Torigoma : exsacly Shadow.

[23:21:11] Aquinas : Let me also say that if i didnt think this could work then i wouldnt be here.

[23:21:19] @ Shadow_Avenger : another thing.

[23:21:34] @ Shadow_Avenger : this for Tori only: Dam son >_> I saw wut yuu did.

[23:21:46] ashhawk has joined the chat the Mon 22 Jun 2009 - 23:21.

[23:21:48] @ Shadow_Avenger : anyways, you guys can continue.

[23:21:57] @ Shadow_Avenger : I shall just sit back and watch, and argue when needed.

[23:22:17] Anarchy69 : whatever i'm going to be some what afk since i can't talk.

[23:22:19] @ Torigoma : wait... wht?.

[23:22:52] @ Torigoma : Never said don't talk, just try and be a little nicer about it.

[23:22:54] @ Shadow_Avenger : same here, Anarchy I'll just watch.

[23:23:15] Anarchy69 : i'll pm you in-game Tori.

[23:23:20] JayKew has joined the chat the Mon 22 Jun 2009 - 23:23.

[23:23:25] @ Torigoma : you too Silent, getting a little nya.

[23:23:27] Drawkcab : Jay..

[23:23:30] Drawkcab : welcome..

[23:23:33] JayKew : okay what's going on here?.

[23:23:41] @ Torigoma : hey Jay.

[23:23:43] Aquinas : I have a sense that alot of you believe that you wont be in SC, while i leave that up to Shadow to decied i rather have really active people people that care enouph to come on this site and talk to me then tho.

[23:23:47] @ silentwolf123 : hey Jay.

[23:23:53] @ Torigoma : , merge Discustion.

[23:23:57] Drawkcab : There is discussion about merging SC and M4H into two alliances, the top 40 and everyone else.

Well first off Drawkcab, I understand you got issues with a merge and have had previous bad experience with them but this is why we're here to try and work this out.

For #3, your right merges sometimes don't work out even if it's well planned, perfect example was a marriage. It's a either a hit or a miss and I'll be the first one to admit it's usually a miss and it's easier to talk about it then actually do it. The chance to fail is higher than the chance of success and the result IS worth it you just got to be accept the chance of success or it'll all go downhill if nobody believes in it.

For #2, There's more than just resolving a mutual threat of the two alliance bodies. We're real friendly cause we've been giving and receiving from one another. I don't want to see M4H and SC get into a fight cause it will cause us both to slow down and have the others lingering right behind us catch up then we're stuck a war and both behind. Better to just stick together and work forward together as a team.

As for #1, world power is a main thing in war games, it's good and bad to have them. Sure it'd be a inconvenient for a few days cause of the changes. You make it seem since we're the 2 super bodies on Elysium that eventually we'll go to war cause there's nobody else near us, but that's just going to halt our growth worrying about one another causing war. Speaking for myself I don't pick on people nor do i think it's advisable to pick on others if we created a super body.. Cause that's just bad karma and there are many members that don't care about occupying/plundering other people, it's actually not a great trade off since flight times are so long and the rewards aren't as good as scouting nearby cities. We're not seeing it as a world power though we're seeing it as completing each others goal to stay/be number one and on top not to intimidate everybody else.

We just hope for a peaceful resolution because just a few things I've observed myself it's looking like it's leading to war which we'd rather avoid to save us both troubles... Tensions have been rising though lately which can be avoided easily if we had better communication between one another.

If there's any other questions or disagreements you guys would like to discuss PLEASE let us know cause we're looking for a final conclusion.

Despite my earlier disgruntled thoughts, I have switched my vote and I am now pro-merger.

TSW

i read youre arguments back and forth in the chat but i noticed one important thing didnt show up, what about when people become unhappy with the new alliances or they want to be in the better group? because face it no matter what you say group 1 is better than group 2. if you have stronger people both commerce and military you will have better opportunities to advance than the lower group plus you will have better miracles so you can produce faster and get farther ahead easier. so what about the people that dont like their group? also what about people that finally get their army made or the parts made to skyrocket in REP? what then because i have seen people fight back in forth to beat the other in rep one surpassing the other back and forth constantly what if this switching back and forth was between the two groups, do you want to go through all the hastle of switching groups back and forth accepting the same people into each group over and over again? this becomes bothersome, just like accepting people into alliances that dont meet the minimums.

i did vote no for a reason and if you think im only stating the bad then what about the high guys that want to get higher? you aquinas said that your guys would help the lower group with their miracles and getting things to help them in the game. well wont this drain on their resources as well? this would make them gain slowly compared to how it is now and other people in other alliance might pass them in rankings due to this causing them to get upset. this is bad isnt it?

i am not happy about mergers at all but if you can prove me wrong then do it id be none the happier to see this work.

sorry if my thoughts are confusing right now i got a million things running through my head

It's true the B group will be lower point players, and when someone goes inactive or drops the guild the A group would take one of the higher players from the B group. It could also be made that once every two weeks or so a "review" could be made and if the leaders decide someone from B deserves a spot in A then they can make room for them. This is what one alliance did in a different game I played (Space Invasion) the B group was sorta like a training grounds and in time became a powerful alliance in their own rights. This is what would happen here.

Goes from 1-7-1 in votes to 4-5-2 within a hour =/

ShadowWolf did a great job of explaining the Viision between group A and Group B.